Testwiki:Property proposal/Archive/25

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In talk about causes, things are often broken down into "underlying cause", "immediate cause" and "contributing factor". This proposal is part of a series to add those properties to Wikidata and help us structure data about causes. The goal is let Wikidata model causation in a way that balances expressiveness and simplicity. It emerges from discussion at Property_talk:P828#A_better_way_to_model_causation (permalink). See there for extended examples and discussion. If these properties are created, then fuller guidelines and documentation will be put together based on the linked discussion and any comments below. Emw (talk) 03:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Danneks, Genewiki123, Infovarius, Micru, TomT0m, Filceolaire, Tobias1984, WS, Matthiassamwald, Danrok, John Vandenberg, others, there seems to be general agreement in Property_talk:P828#A_better_way_to_model_causation for a three-tiered approach to modelling causation. Cause is a complex subject but I think we can grow guidelines over time as we gain experience with structuring data about causation in different domains. Please comment and vote here on this property, and also on the 'has contributing factor' property proposal below. Assuming consensus is shown here on this three-tier framework, I'll plan to label of P828 from 'medical causes' to 'has cause' and update its description accordingly. Thanks, Emw (talk) 04:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

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See proposal for 'has immediate cause' above. Emw (talk) 04:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

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Need to model complex sourcing cases with boolean "flags" like specifies above for cases like "born around 1709". Vlsergey (talk) 12:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support OK now I get it. LaddΩ chat ;) 20:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

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This is a very useful database for sports articles, and being able to pull their IDs from Wikidata would be immensely helpful for the projects. Jon Harald Søby (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support --- Løken (talk) 19:57, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:S linking to a sportsreference profile is common in EL sections on enwiki. --AmaryllisGardener talk 20:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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Another reliable encyclopedia link. Vlsergey (talk) 18:05, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

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This would be a useful addition, as some languages with WALS codes don't have ISO 639-3 (yet). πr2 (t • c) 02:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

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This would be a useful addition, as many language families with WALS genus codes don't have ISO 639-3 (yet). πr2 (t • c) 02:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

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This would be a useful addition, as some language families with WALS codes don't have ISO 639-3 (yet). Many of these have glottocodes however. πr2 (t • c) 02:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

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This one would be great, because it is very versatile. Not only can you use it to link to the general stats and records for a player, but also to their Confederations Cup profile and World Cup profile and so on. Jon Harald Søby (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

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I was asked by one of medicine content writer in English Wikipedia Amir (talk) 15:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support - Hi Amir Template:Ping. Don't forget to ping the appropriate project if you request a property :) That will speed up voting. Tobias1984 (talk) 15:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping project -Tobias1984 (talk) 15:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support After seeing the outcome of a similiar project at en:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Wikidata_project_to_associate_drugs_with_interactions I feel like I would want this kind of property to use for other, similar government websites to get a comparable outcome. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, I'll do the next time Amir (talk) 20:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

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A very useful website. Jfhutson (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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Nupill Literatura Digital is an impressive database regarding authors and books in portuguese language and about portuguese speaking countries/cultures. Certainly a must have for Wikidata. Lugusto (talk) 23:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:S --Micru (talk) 13:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

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Nupill Literatura Digital is an impressive database regarding authors and books in portuguese language and about portuguese speaking countries/cultures. Certainly a must have for Wikidata. Lugusto (talk) 23:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Created in addition to Template:P. --Kolja21 (talk) 03:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

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vici.org provides a mapping to Wikidata items. These links should be brought back into Wikidata to be reused by other parties. I contacted them to provide a dump of mappings to be imported in Wikidata. -- JakobVoss (talk) 13:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC) I've added a BEACON file to make life easier. It is at http://vici.org/BEACON.txt . Let me know if things need to change. Coming months I hope to link much more places.--René Voorburg (talk) 13:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC) -- Always uptodate is http://vici.org/vici/all/rdf . The dataset now contain about 20.000 objects.René Voorburg (talk) 06:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support --Kolja21 (talk) 23:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

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I've curated a list of a few thousand Stack Overflow tags and their corresponding Wikipedia articles. I asked on the project chat about how to incorporate it, and Emw suggested that this seems like the right place to store the information. I just built a list for StackOverflow.com, but I'm sure this can be done for any of the other sites.

I need a little clarification about creating such a property - is it acceptable to have multiple values of this property for the same entity? Because, for example, Template:Q should link to at least "apache" on StackOverflow.com, "apache-2.2" on ServerFault.com, and "apache-2.4" on ServerFault.com. Also, notice how some sites have separate tags for distinct versions of some software; would this be fine? Finally some Stack Exchange correspond to things that only have a sub-section of a Wikipedia article, and I'm not sure of the right way to refer to them on Wikidata.

Thanks for your input! Bskaggs (talk) 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

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  • "is it acceptable to have multiple values of this property for the same entity?"
Yes, I think that would be acceptable, especially in the initial implementation. Ideally, in my opinion, we would separate each version of a piece of software into its own Wikidata item even if it does not have a Wikipedia article, but that's probably too ambitious to start with. So if Template:Q links "apache" on StackOverflow.com, "apache-2.2" on ServerFault.com, and "apache-2.4" on ServerFault.com, that's fine. We can refine things later.
  • "Also, notice how some sites have separate tags for distinct versions of some software; would this be fine?"
Yes.
  • "Finally some Stack Exchange correspond to things that only have a sub-section of a Wikipedia article, and I'm not sure of the right way to refer to them on Wikidata."
Please create an item for those things. You can do so programmatically. Wikidata:Bots has a lot of bots that do this kind of stuff and Wikidata:Bot_requests has notes on past work.

Template:Ping project (your previous might not have gone through.) Emw (talk) 02:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:S --Micru (talk) 13:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

*Template:O Unless I'm greatly mistaken, StackOverflow is a forum of sorts, so why link to it? --Jakob (talk) 11:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Template:S Tag creation on stackoverflow is done by experienced users, users can not tag their questions with less common tags and stackoverflow itself is under "cc by-sa 3.0" so this is supporting another free knowledge database, I don't see any reason to oppose and like the idea. Also in future they can integrate their service with Wikidata for retrieving descriptions or we can compare our descriptions with theirs. –ebraminiotalk 13:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Ping Template:Done --Jakob (talk) 11:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

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The suggested code will be useful to find correct places at statistical tables of Iran's statistics organization. Iran has many settlements which have the same name and disambiguate of them needs this code. also in other Iran's data centers like this they uses this code (كدآماري). Yamaha5 (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Done –ebraminiotalk 00:17, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

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If the community prefers, this could be reversed, as a property of the institution. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Andy, we already have Template:P for such cases.--Micru (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • And how does that tell us that someone was a WiR (as opposed to a curator, or a janitor)? Also, many WiR posts are voluntary, not "work". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Using Template:P as qualifier you can describe the position. We don't have any property for salary yet (currency units still will take a while), but when we do you could enter "salary:no value" for volunteers.--Micru (talk) 19:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Oppose Redundant to the aforementioned property.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Not done Redundant to existing property.--Micru (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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Needed for use with Template:P property. Probably important that we have this for living persons especially those who pleaded innocent (and may well be). Danrok (talk) 12:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

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Are those club-specific player IDs which would only apply to a small group of rugby players? Not sure what the policy is for such rather special properties. --Bthfan (talk) 15:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:O In my opinion, most of these properties are not needed. For Barbarians, All Blacks, French Barbarians, you can use the following syntax :
Template:Q Template:P Template:Q
Template:P 1014.
What's more, neither the official british & irish lions' website nor the ERCrugby one do use proper identification numbers. I don't see the need to store numbers in wikidata then. I think it would be better to have one proposal for each type of ID. That way, we would be more able to sort out which property is needed and which is not. --Casper Tinan (talk) 20:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:Not done Redundant to existing property.--Micru (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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Template:P changes every month, and it is a lot of work to keep the Wikipedias updated. This proposed FideID property for chess players, will make it easy to match chess players on FIDE's rating lists with their Wikidata items, so bots automatically can keep Wikidata (and indirectly Wikipedias using Wikidata) updated with the chess players' actual rating. Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 09:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:S, with timestamp. Conny (talk) 07:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
Thanks, but with what timestamp? The FideID for a chess player will hopefully never change. Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 08:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Are you possibly confusing this with FIDE rating? --Jakob (talk) 11:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Argh, yes. Thank you :) . Conny (talk) 11:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC).

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Motivation Hsarrazin (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2014 (UTC) Considering the very important number of images of people's grave, I would suggest to add a type of image (for people), to indicate that the picture is representing the grave or tombstone, not the actual person (or portrait).

  • now, that would be ok to me too… - my proposal was, considering the existing system :)--Hsarrazin (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think that would work, since a grave picture really isn't an image of a person in any way. --Jakob (talk) 21:29, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
  • well, some grave have a portrait on it, and when there is no other pic for the person, it is better than nothing ;) - and much better than a plaque on a house the person lived in… at least, there is only 1 grave - and generally, the person is in it, but there may be a lot of places where the person has stayed :D --Hsarrazin (talk) 20:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Template:Done--Micru (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support, a majority of creator templates include a wikidata ID, since it was the only way to create a link to wikidata and retrieve wikilinks through a script, at the time it was created. I worked a lot on those creators, to include wikidata and/or other informations, and there are a lot of information there, that should be recovered, before the template can be converted to use wikidata items ;) --Hsarrazin (talk) 12:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
strong Template:Support: same with me --Oursana (talk) 08:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Pour — Ayack (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

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This property is of interest for any kind of organization. MB-one (talk) 11:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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Typical statistic for disasters which is normally reported by sources. Danrok (talk) 12:34, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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Similar property to Template:P Danrok (talk) 11:19, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support -Tobias1984 (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Template:Done--Micru (talk) 11:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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to record details of sports matches. Filceolaire (talk) 20:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

score method? And, I wonder if Template:P could be used for this, as a qualifier? Template:P Template:Q. Danrok (talk) 12:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Done as Template:P.--Micru (talk) 11:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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to record details of sports matches. Filceolaire (talk) 20:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Template:Support --Paperoastro (talk) 08:30, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Comment Isn't this property get a bit too football-specific (if it's for football only, I think this should be mentioned in the domain)? Though to be honest I'm not sure how detailed Wikidata should/wants to collect such data. Not that someone on one day gets the idea to do a mass-import of basketball games and record all assists for every made basket (this would be a lot :-). --Bthfan (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Template:PingAssists are also recorded for basket-ball players. Yet, I agree with you : wikidata is not supposed to become a sports database.
Template:Ping Do you know of any wikipedia infobox, list or table that would use this property ?Casper Tinan (talk) 21:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Casper Tinan Bthfan This isn't just for football. It's for every team sport which records such data. If there is a fan out there collecting these statistics and wants to donate them to someone who will make them freely available and provide the infrastructure for other fans to build on his work then I think that yes Wikidata could become a sports database, one which can be accessed by anyone for any analysis they want to do, without having to get a license to anyone - or it at least has the potential to do so some day. For now I'm just thinking about the world cup. Filceolaire (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Contrario We don't need such information. Referee, scorers and minute is enough. -- Blackcat (talk) 13:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Oppose Too much specific and too difficult to take note of. -- Sannita - not just another it.wiki sysop 09:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Comment I strongly disagree with the oppose reasons. "Too detailed" or "too specific" aren't good reasons to oppose a property proposal. What if we deleted Wikipedia articles for being too obscure? This is basically the same thing. If some items can use a property and they can't use other properties for the same purpose, I see absolutely no reason why a property should not be created. --Jakob (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I didn't know we had Template:P. I'd support using that instead of a new property. --Jakob (talk) 17:21, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • As Jakob: I support the use of Template:P. --Paperoastro (talk) 19:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I actually would have supported this before knowing of Template:P, but now that I do, I agree with Jakob and Paperoastro. Emw (talk) 19:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:Not done Per comments use instead Template:P.--Micru (talk) 11:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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Motivation Zolo (talk) 07:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC) <add 2014-09-11>see also Wikidata:Properties for deletion for replacement of p357, Template:P, Template:P, Template:P </>

  • Template:Oppose we can have single language property per item, so that shall be used as default language for all language-related properties. I don't want bunch of properties like "lang+title", "lang+subtitle", "lang+edition title", etc. -- Vlsergey (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Vlsergey: I am not really sure of what you have in mind. We already have "title", "subtitle" etc. properties. Depending on the type of item there should be either one value (the title in the original language, or several, like one title per language). Currently, we specify the language using qualifiers. But now, we can use the "monolingual-string" datatype. The only difference is that language will now be required (which seems to make sense), and stored in the mainsnak's datavalue rather than in the qualifiers (which is more convenient). --Zolo (talk) 07:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Ping for every FRBR edition item we have Template:P property that specifies language for all language-dependent properties. I don't like the idea to specify same language value several times in the same entity -- it is big overcomplication and redundancy (for FRBR work we also have Template:P). Currently the language can be specified once per entity, and language-dependent values with different language (for example, French name for English book, by the way, it would be original research to define that) can be specified using qualifiers in very rare cases. That is enough. -- Vlsergey (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Reply to, it is true that for items about a particular edition of a text, the language should be inferrable from the Template:P of the item. However, in many cases (items about a book with translation, about a move, about an artwork). We need more than one title. In many cases, the label could do the job, but that is less precise and less powerful. For example, if the French title of a movie is different in Canada and in France, wich may happen, it is easier to use a statement (that can have qualifiers) rather than the label. Or if an artwork was given a title by an art historian, we should know in which language it is (for formatting reasons and others). It could be done analyzing the item given in the reference, but that may prove rather tricky. As a rule, I think it makes sense that when a string is in a particular language, this is indicated directly in the datavalue. This is really easier to work with than qualifiers. If the language is really easy to infer, adding it will not be much additional work. And if the language is not easy to infer, this is proof that adding it is useful.
Template:Ping each translation shall be separate item i.e. FRBR Edition with it's own Template:P value, it's own title, editors, publisher, dates, ISBN codes, etc. -- Vlsergey (talk) 07:41, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Reply to I know, but we also need items for the work, independently of the translation, and actually, this is the majority of our current items (en:War and Peace is not about an individual translation, nor is Template:Q only about the original edition). And for movies, we currently do not use separate items for each subtitled version. For visual artworks, it would just be meaningless (there is just one work, just different titles).--Zolo (talk) 08:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Another argument against this property is titles in artificial languages. For example, what language shall we put for "Woblanadne Ctulhu Ftagn" title? It's obligatory, i.e. we won't be able just omit language, and not, it is not an English (it's only English transcription). We can't specify artificial language neither, because language list is fixed by server properties. -- Vlsergey (talk) 07:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:S It'is locigal the have the French mention after the Bonheur d'occasion of Template:Q. --Fralambert (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
We have Template:P for official name and label for local name. What is the use? can you show an example? --ValterVB (talk) 17:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Reply to This property should replace Template:P, so it would have the same use as it (book titles, movie titles etc.) I would not necessarily be opposed with merging "title" and "official name" but that it is not we have at the moment. --Zolo (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support the change in datatype Filceolaire (talk) 14:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Subteno. --Yair rand (talk) 22:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

==> Note This property replaced string property Property:P357, as discussed at Requests for deletions/Archive/2015/Properties/1#P357.


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==> String-type P513 deletion discussion can be found at Wikidata:Requests_for_deletions/Archive/2014/Properties/1#P513.

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Some scripts can be written in multiple directions, so different values could be specified. Also, it may be ambiguous whether TTB and "bottom up" goes from left-to-right or right-to-left, which could be specified as separate items. πr2 (t • c) 19:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It's also ambiguous whether LTR and RTL go downwards or upwards in block direction. --Yair rand (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping That's true, but I'm not aware of any LTR/RTL that goes upwards. Maybe we need two properties (or a qualifier) for this, unless you can think of a non-confusing way to encode it. The majority of scripts (especially ones still used today) are probably either LTR downwards or RTL downwards. πr2 (t • c) 21:19, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping I have added some of the necessary items (see above), more can be created as needed. If there are no objections I'll create this property in the next days.--Micru (talk) 19:26, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

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It's very important for template spaceflight Adert (talk) 11:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Question How will you handle situations where a craft orbits more than one body? --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support If necessary, it is possible to use a qualifier to indicate each body that has been orbited. Maybe Template:P or create a new one.--Micru (talk) 17:41, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Template:S Danrok (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

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Motivation. Sometimes it is needed to use a label as a qualifier of another property, or there is a label that only was valid during a certain period (to be used with qualifier "start/end date"). I also think that it could be used to model systems since inputs and outputs usually require a way of name the signals.--Micru (talk) 17:12, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

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Basic property.--Micru (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Template:Oppose. contained_in had been a property of the Basic Formal Ontology (BFO), but it's being removed from BFO 2 per the draft specification in favor of a more generalized Template:P property. I think that's a move in the right direction; we can use located in to capture the meaning of contained in. Emw (talk) 03:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Ping are you sure of that? Looking at "3.6.4 Location" it seems that it has been replaced by occupies_spatial_region which is similar to "contained in". The problem of "located in", also identified in BFO2, is that it needs some prepositional modifier to indicate the location relation between both entities. Instead of "contained in", we could think of a qualifier of "located in", maybe "spatial relation" with values "on", "inside", "above", etc.? --Micru (talk) 07:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

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Needed to express which function a given part has in a system (it might be different depending on the system). Notifying Template:Ping--Micru (talk) 14:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Simply put, roles are things that are optionally manifested in other things. Roles are realized in things by virtue of some special natural, social, or institutional set of circumstances. Roles depend on those things for their existence. For example, roles include any of our various occupations, or the Template:Q of a Template:Q from Micru's example. One would say that "E. coli has role pathogen", for example, because such bacteria do not have that role when outside an animal's gut. In contrast, one would not say "heart has role circulation", because hearts are typically found in bodies pumping one. (However one might say "heart has role dinner" when being eaten by a lion.) Another example is something like "hydrogen has role nutrient", as stated in the BFO ontology ChEBI, the reference ontology for chemicals of biological interest.
This brings me to how I would change the 'Description' value of this proposed property. It currently reads "the function an element fulfills in a given system". "Function", "element" and "system" all have significant meaning and would cause alignment problems with BFO ontologies as proposed.
"Function" in BFO is closely related to "role", but not the same. Functions manifest in something by virtue of its physical structure. "Function" differs from "role" in that the former always or almost always manifests in something by virtue of its physical structure, while the latter optionally manifests in something. For example, the means "heart has function circulation" would be preferred over "heart has role function", because hearts almost always circulate blood, and do so by virtue of their physical structure. Same with "hammer has function impact nails".
"Element" has strong associations with the set theory operator element of (ϵ). The distinction between an "element" and a "set" is what differentiates the basic membership properties Template:P and Template:P -- these are often analogized to "element of" and "subset of". I would not want the proposed wording to imply that has role is only applicable for instances and not for classes. BFO permits usage of has role on both instances and classes and the proposed property should do the same.
Finally, "system" is a vague term and seems likely to produce undue confusion. Certainly Template:Q has a specific kind of role, the occupation Template:Q, and Template:Q has role Template:Q, but to say that either subject is "in a given system" is rather obtuse. Things that have a role can be part of a system, but that should not be necessary and so shouldn't be in the description. I think we can safely drop the word "system" from the description.
I would word the description as "something the subject does because of some special natural, social, or institutional set of circumstances", per BFO.
Micru, thanks for proposing this property. I think it's likely to become a significant positive outcome of the Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Refining_"part_of" RFC. Emw (talk) 03:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Description changed as per Emw's comment.--Micru (talk) 07:22, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
That sounds useful. But as the role/function distinction suggests, that may be tricky to work out. Something about which I was wondering: it would be interesting to have a property that would say the areas of intervention of a particular administrative unit (eduction, security, etc.) Would that be possible to say that with this property or would it pave the way to irredeemable messiness ? Template:Ping --Zolo (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping "Has role" is for entities that change their function depending on the context. I do not think that an organization adopts different roles, it is created with a fixed set of "functions" in mind and it always fulfills those, for that reason I would recommend using Template:P or proposing a new "organization function" property if p366 seems too bound to artificial objects.--Micru (talk) 07:30, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Perhaps this should have a different label, so that users don't accidentally select it when they mean to add Template:P. --Yair rand (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Ping I have been thinking about this, and I reached the conclusion that the confusion would be normal because... they are the same property. Well, Template:P is constrained to "interpretative roles", but there is the question if we can generalize Template:P for all uses, or if we can exclude "interpretative roles" from this generic one. Would a "Constraint:Item|NOT property=Template:P" work?.--Micru (talk) 07:30, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
    I'm afraid I don't see the similarities or associations between the two properties at all. --Yair rand (talk) 00:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support I think this property would be very useful in book cataloging, for qualifying the very various roles of the authors : editor, translator, preface, etc.,
and yes Micru, organizations can have different roles in the same action, depending on many things, time, money, politics, etc. : an organisation can also be authoring a book... as author, as editor, as publisher... and it may also (for administrations), lead a politic, finance it, coordinate, etc. --Hsarrazin (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Done as Template:P. Similar to Template:P, but p453 is constrained to people, while this new property can be used for everything. Notification: Template:Ping--Micru (talk) 14:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Ups, I have just noticed that "has role" is redundant with Template:P. I will ask for a merge.--Micru (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
D - I had not seen it either… just added an alias to make it more explicit… --Hsarrazin (talk) 22:18, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Different meaning than Template:P.--Micru (talk) 14:40, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Template:Comment: Template:Q currently uses Template:P with Template:Q: Template:P = 2 --- Jura 17:26, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Oppose. I support the spirit of this property -- capturing cardinality constraints -- but I think we should use a generic cardinality property and merge Template:P and this proposed property into it. (As a practical matter I would redefine P1114 to have the semantics of that generic property.) That's much closer to how OWL and existing major ontologies handle cardinality constraints. "Cardinality" might be too stuffy as a label for such a property -- perhaps we could get by with 'number' or 'has number', and supply a description that indicates it doesn't take phone numbers? Emw (talk) 04:02, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

With aliases: "performed by", "done by", "executed by".--Micru (talk) 14:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Motivation: Wikidata:Project_chat#How_to_handle_native_language_names.3F--Micru (talk) 12:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

so what was Hu Jintao's birthname? How many birth names did he have (with different transliterations) and are these really all birth names?
I agree something needs to be done but we need a solution that works for people with multiple names. I need to think about this. Filceolaire (talk) 22:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Yes, actually you are right, we'd need a generic transliteration (monolingual string) with this property as qualifier (description changed accordingly). It would be easier to have the name as an independent item, because then we'd be able to put all transliterations for that name together, but that again seems to be in the domain of linguistic data... --Micru (talk) 06:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Consider Template:Q.
  • birth name:იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი (in Georgian)
    • Transliteration:Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili (English)
    • Transliteration:Iósif Vissariónovich Dzhugashvili (spanish)
  • Known as:Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Ста́лин
    • Transliteration:Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin (English)
  • Known as:Ио́сиф Ста́лин (Russian)
    • Transliteration:Joseph Stalin (English)
    • Transliteration:José Stalin (Spanish)
    • Transliteration:Josef Stalin (Spanish)
Qualifiers can't have qualifiers so I'm not sure where to put the 'transliteration type' property.
it does look like we need a 'known as' property and a 'transliteration' (or maybe 'localisation') property. Filceolaire (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping I don't think that we can do that with qualifiers, because also transliterations may have sources. I have tried to replicate with items your structure here: https://test.wikidata.org/wiki/Q558.--Micru (talk) 12:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Still thinking about this. So basically we have 2 solutions:
  • Each time we want to describe a name, we create a separate item. Which means that if we want to get the Arabic transliteration of Richard Wagner we do it through Template:Q and Template:Q. There are 2 issues first that it may seem unwieldy and requires creating items even for nicknames and given names that were given to only one person. More importantly, it may not always give a correct result. One case in point is transforming transmogrigying a name into Chinese (not sure it would be called transliteration, but it is needed notheless). For instance, Richard appears to be rendered the differently in Chinese in Richard Wagner and in Richard the Lionheart.
  • Using qualifiers. That seems to require create new properties, like, I guess a string-type "first name" property in addition to the current item-type one. It would also create massive redundancy (repeating the 10s of transliteration of the same first name in 1000s of items). And as Micru notes that may also have issues for sourcing (which actually is an issues I have encountered several times with statements containing qualifiers, so there may be something more general at stake here).
We could also make a mix of the two, but that may not be very intuitive.
We could also decide that we can let the software do the job for simple cases (providing standard transliterations of Greek or Russian words for English-speaking users iappears to be pretty mechanical and straightforward). But it would not work for all cases, so that would not really solve anything. -Zolo (talk) 13:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)n
Template:Ping you forgot to mention the third option, which is to treat the whole name as an item, and then transcribe/adapt it as a whole, linking to linguistic data when/if available with qualifiers (see linked items).
I think we should not enforce any solution, just offer a path for the names of an item to grow organically depending on the number of editors interested in the item: first only labels (as now), then use monolingual properties for transliterations all in the same item, and when the item grows too big, then split it into subitems (see my example).--Micru (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
When we get a 'monolingualtext' datatype I look forward to getting the 'official name' property and will be proposing a number of other name properties. Also proposing that the datatype for the 'birth name' be changed from 'string'.
When we get a multilingual text' datatype I will be proposing a 'localised version' property with multilingual text datatype, to use as a qualifier for the name properties. For some languages there may well be more than one commonly used localisation for famous names (e.g. for languages using more than one script). For many small languages the wikidata transliteration will effectively become the default name for that person/country/company since no one else has ever bothered to write about that item in that language before.
Note that there is still no place to put a 'transliteration type' property but we do get a 'language' qualifier for free for each 'localised version'. Filceolaire (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Many species, particularly invertebrates, feed exclusively on one species genus or family of plants. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Why not use Template:P to express that? Tobias1984 (talk) 17:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that should do (I looked, but couldn't find anything). Please consider this proposal withdrawn. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:53, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Widely used in horticulture. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The scope should not resticted to plants and species. Thus rename the property to hybrid parents (de: Hybrideltern). To model cases like Template:Q = Equus asinus × Equus caballus and Template:Q = Equus caballus × Equus asinus we will need an additional qualifer to denote Template:Q with the allowed values Template:Q and Template:Q. --Succu (talk) 16:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping project --Succu (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Succu has a point. - Brya (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support with the amendment of Succu. Tobias1984 (talk) 08:19, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support as Tobias1984. - Brya (talk) 05:58, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Now of course Template:S --Succu (talk) 21:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Make it easier to find and use them. For each language, the form used as label for items should be defined (e.g. singular masculine adjective). Additional items with qualifiers could be used to store alternate forms. --- Jura 11:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Edited the above proposal. --- Jura 14:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support. Emw (talk) 19:03, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Comment someone nuked the sample items, but I guess the proposal can be understood without them. --- Jura 07:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Template:Oppose Since "demonym items" seem not to fulfill the notability criteria, I don't think it is a good idea to create this property. Better to wait till there is Wiktionary support, and treat them as linguistic data.--Micru (talk) 08:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
The items would fulfill the notability criteria because they are linked to this property.
I don't see how Wiktionary support would be of any help, as it's structured by string sequence rather than meaning. Template:Ping Maybe you could explain how this would work. --- Jura 08:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
With lexical data support we would link to the item containing all declinations and lexical forms. I strongly discourage this property. Instead I recommend of the following:
  • Template:P for existing items like Template:Q, understanding that these items are not meant to represent the word, but the concept of being of a certain place and how that concept came into existence.
  • a mono/multilingual string property for demonyms with appropriate qualifiers
--Micru (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary doesn't seem to be on the planning horizon, so we need to find another solution.
Obviously, we do need to be rigorous with the labels, otherwise automated use of the words isn't possible. Current infoboxes in Wikipedia just use one form, so it shouldn't be much of an issue to define a primary form for this either.
Some sort of a string property could work. If the above solution seems to complicated, we could just start with the existing string format and add qualifiers to define the language used. --- Jura 05:29, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Jura, that seems more reasonable and the monolingual datatype is almost ready (no need to qualify with language). If there are articles about the demonym, they can be linked with the qualifier Template:P. With the datatype change I would support the proposal.--Micru (talk) 08:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
This property was already created and was later deleted: [1]. 130.88.141.34 08:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
It seem to have been defined in a different way, attempting to use existing items for Wikipedia articles. The infoboxes mentioned above generally don't use these. --- Jura 05:29, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Template:Forte kontraux. This is exclusively lexical data, and thus not (atm) at all within Wikidata's domain. --Yair rand (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Wouldn't Template:Tl be a better template to use then? --Jakob (talk) 21:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Since the suggested datatype is "Template:Datatype", I'm not sure it would make sense to consider an eventual property targeting lexical data to be the same as the one proposed here. --Yair rand (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Ahh...okay. I Template:S the general idea, but we need monolingual text, not an item. --Jakob (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Withdrawn, replaced by the proposal below. --- Jura 13:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

need for people autocategorization in ruwiki (and other wikis) Vlsergey (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

need for people autocategorization in ruwiki (and other wikis) Vlsergey (talk) 00:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

phone number / toll free phone number / fax (en)

Template:Property proposal

Discussion
I don't understand your proposal. Why do you want to use the "mulitlingual text" datatype? For telephone numbers the IRI-Datatype should be used as far I know. Otherwise I would use the string datatype, because there is nothing multilingual in phone numbers. --Pyfisch (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
My mistake.--GZWDer (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Template:Comment phone numbers having nothing to do with IRIs. --Danrok (talk) 00:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Template:Support -- DerFussi 11:26, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Support --NatiSythen (talk) 07:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Support Maybe it makes sense to distinguish between land-line and mobile phone and fax numbers, too. In any case we need a rule how to handle multiple numbers. And how to write it to the database, so that the numbers can be "translated" in individual language branches. A "phone number" datatype would be useful. --RolandUnger (talk) 13:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Ping Template:Ping Template:Done, but I cannot seem to add the property to an item. --Jakob (talk) 13:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
    Me neither, it seems the tel: URL scheme is not supported. Maybe it's better to change the datatype to string. Mushroom (talk) 10:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    It should not be to difficult to add tel: sheme, maybe someone can just ask the developers to add it. Best case they only need to change a single line of code. --Pyfisch (talk) 07:09, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Comment: In the meantime, shouldn't this be created as a string property? Property:P1244 was created over a month ago, but can't be used. --- Jura 06:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Comment Later a plain string property got created: Template:Status → Property:P1329

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Motivation. GZWDer (talk) 12:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support --Zhuyifei1999 (talk) 12:29, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Oppose The example is faulty; several dominions that are part of the United Kingdom are not part of the British Isles. This information is also not specific to Wikivoyage. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 12:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
So this will only be used in Wikivoyage.--GZWDer (talk) 12:43, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support -- DerFussi 11:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC) - But the information has to be specific to each language version. -- DerFussi 05:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Oppose You can not do that: the Control of Contents in WV-de belongs to WV-de and must be discussed there, not here in English. I am Bbb of WV-de and have no guilty account here.--80.81.13.134 12:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
    The usage of that information is still the decision of the WV-de community. We can, but dont have to us it on de. -- DerFussi 05:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:Support IsIn and IsPartOf are identical in a technical sense. Maybe the naming IsIn is better because this feature can be used not only in the main namespace. This information has to be specific to each language branch. Maybe it is useful to distinguish between one primary and obligatory IsIn and a random number of secondary IsIns. For instance Garmisch-Partenkirchen is primarily in Bavaria and secondarily in the Alps. The Alps are in Europe, and it is not possible to put it in a single bread-crumb trail with Bavaria or Germany. --RolandUnger (talk) 13:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

wikinews portal (en)

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Motivation. Danrok (talk) 21:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Work period (from) (en)

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Work period (until) (en)

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion
  • Template:Ping - Most of the toolkits already have items (en:List of widget toolkits). And I think connecting the programs with the toolkits is notable too. It is a frequent discussion in programmer circles which toolkit is used for which program. And none of the toolkits is 100 % plattform independent. Platforms are going for a native look and usage paradigm which some toolkits do better than others. Some examples:

Template:TranslateThis

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Discussion

Every vehicle has a mass therefore we should have a matching property. Also the themplate has a mass property http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_fictional_vehicle 194.121.90.163 13:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

see also http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Transportation#mass --194.121.90.163 10:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Template:SupportMcnabber091 (talk) 10:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support --- Jura 14:24, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support Amir (talk) 21:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:Comment This was a duplicate of Template:P. It seems people are not aware of properties. Why? — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 09:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC). Edited: added a 'not' — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 15:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Template:Oppose. Duplicate property.-CCD (talk) 18:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Maximum glide ratio / beste Gleitzahl / Finesse

Template:Property proposal

Template:Support - all flyable things need this in my opinion. --Tobias1984 (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Template:Support - except baloons. Could go ahead now, as it's unitless. 194.239.195.65 20:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

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Discussion
How about using Template:P instead? Is there difference between them? --[[User:콩가루|Template:LangSwitch]] (talk) 04:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Comment they are different. Danrok (talk) 20:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support --[[User:콩가루|Template:LangSwitch]] (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:06, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

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Template:Property proposal

Discussion

This would be an inverse property of Template:P. To make that apparent, the label would follow the 'has X' and 'X of' pattern used in properties like Template:P and Template:P. It would have the aliases 'has effect', 'has result', 'outcome of', and others.

Like other inverse properties, this property, 'immediate cause of' and 'contributing factor of' would require editors to use common sense. For example, this means not putting 15 million 'cause of' claims in Template:Q or Template:Q. When not used in clearly inappropriate ways this generic property to capture causally downstream information would be quite useful. Emw (talk) 03:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Adding_disease_properties Emitraka (talk) 18:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

MacTutor id

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Widely used, see Template:Q Zolo (talk) 08:38, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping done: Template:P--Zolo (talk) 08:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Found while researching for birthday/date of death data for en.Wikisource. Contains lots of minor writers without information on similar sites. The example above, for example, was not found on VIAF. Lugusto (talk) 18:54, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support --Kolja21 (talk) 19:55, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Template:S --Eurodyne (talk) 19:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping done: Template:P--Zolo (talk) 08:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

The main inspiration for this qualifier proposal is including an explanation of why a marriage ended (e.g., Template:Q, Template:Q), something often kept track of in infoboxes but not included in Wikidata so far. We can definitely broaden it to include any more information about why something started or ended though, such as if someone transferred schools, dropped-out, etc. Cbrown1023 talk 02:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

If this is to be used for many properties, I don't think that "reason" is the right word here. --Yair rand (talk) 22:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
What do you suggest? I couldn't come up with a better name either, but "end reason" is the best one we came up with. If we agree it's a good idea, though, the good thing about Wikidata being a wiki is that we can always change the name or add new aliases. Cbrown1023 talk 01:32, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion
  • Generic property for linking the entity being used and agent using it (the above "has agent" links an action with the agent performing it).--Micru (talk) 11:04, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Support. Emw (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:S --Eurodyne (talk) 22:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

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Discussion

Inverse of 'has immediate cause'. See notes in property proposals for 'has immediate cause' and 'cause of' above. Emw (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Inverse of 'has contributing factor'. See discussion in 'has immediate cause' and 'cause of' above for details. Emw (talk) 04:10, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

  • This replaces the previous proposal of a property with item datatype. --- Jura 13:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC) Template:Ping
  1. Template:Pour — Ayack (talk) 19:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  2. Template:Comment This property will be more suited as a multilingual text for me. Demonym are not necessarelly frozen in one language, expecially for a country. --Fralambert (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  3. Template:Oppose. This is Wiktionary's domain. This should wait until we have a system for dealing with complex (very complex) linguistic data. --Yair rand (talk) 02:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia generally includes this information (see infobox samples above). --- Jura 06:08, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I am aware of that. Still, this data is well beyond what Wikidata is currently capable of. Demonyms are words, and words are complicated. Some languages can have hundreds of different forms for a demonym, and there are thousands of languages we can cover, and these are interlinked in strange ways. Simple monolingualtext won't work well at all. --Yair rand (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  4. Template:Comment I came here to propose this myself. It's relevant to us in addition to Wiktionary, as evidenced by the fact that it's used in infoboxes (for example, see w:en:Halifax, Nova Scotia and its unusual demonym "Haligonian"). But Fralambert does make a good point that it would have to be multilingual, so now I'm torn. --Arctic.gnome (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Good question indeed. For many places demonyms might only exists in one or two local languages. This property can easily hold entries for several languages. A solution that requires translation of the label in every conceivable language might not be that practical. This was the disadvantage of the earlier "item" property. A multilingual property is likely to have the same drawback. --- Jura 08:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I guess most places (other than countries and world-cities) will only have a commonly-used demonym in the local language. Where demonyms exist in two or three local languages, we could add both of them with the language as a qualifier, like I did with Template:P on Template:Q. However, countries and world-cities have demonyms in every language, so maybe we should change the name of this parameter to "local demonym"; either that or we wait until compatibility with Wiktionary so we can link to their list of all demoyms. --Arctic.gnome (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  5. Template:Pour In Wikipedia in Spanish we are creating a Infovox only gets values ​​Wikidata. This is necessary for such a system is feasible --Miguillen (talk) 08:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  6. Template:Weak support Not totally support, I would prefert a multiligual text property. --Fralambert (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Similar to Template:P, but for linking to the description of a motto. The latter will be soon created as well, since the monolanguage datatype is about to be deployed. LaddΩ chat ;) 00:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  • If we can link to the actual item about the motto, why couldn't we use Template:P on the motto item, rather than on the place item itself? --Ricordisamoa 02:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Indeed, property Template:P could well be used on motto items themselves, but how many mottos do actually have an item? I checked a few users of en:Template:Infobox country and all were displaying the motto in text, with no associated item. LaddΩ chat ;) 03:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
There are 170 articles in en:Category:Mottos and subcategories. I dislike the "X description" label format; pointing to the item is supposed to be referring to the entity itself. If we need separate properties for these, this should be "motto" and P1451 should be "motto text". --Yair rand (talk) 02:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

When I was asking for Template:P, I believed that the exceptional and classified properties avec the code. I realised that the web link are different. Fralambert (talk) 16:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:S -Tobias1984 (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Done, tanks for your approval. --Fralambert (talk) 23:10, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

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Template:Property proposal

Discussion

The site http://kulturnoe-nasledie.ru/ is not really the official database of the cultural heritage of Russia, but it was created with the support of the goverment and contains the most complete database available for non-specialists. As identifier of the cultural heritage is commonly used this one. --putnik 08:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Template:S but it's better to import data from Wikipedia, not from site itself (due to legal rights) -- Vlsergey (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Template:S As other monument database. --Fralambert (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Template:Done --Fralambert (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Could be very useful for Template:Q in Template:Q ; the Template:Q is much more precise than Template:Q and Template:Q. VIGNERON (talk) 07:22, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

  1. Template:Pour — Ayack (talk) 10:22, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
  2. Template:Pour It can also be usefull for Template:Q of Template:Q like providing a source for coordinates. Template:U' Does it indicate if a element is part of a Template:Q or Template:Q? --Fralambert (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
    Template:Ping : yes, here you can see the list of items in Glad by protection. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
  3. Template:Pour — Mathieudu68 talk 16:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping Template:Done: Template:P — Ayack (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:TranslateThis

Template:Property proposal

Discussion

Necessary property for modeling w:FRBR levels. Not necessary all the time, but in some cases it might be useful to model the manifestation separately from the expression. --Micru (talk) 08:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Could you show at least one such case, please (for works)? Danneks (talk) 18:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping There are no items like that at the moment, because it is for special cases, but I created one for this example:
  • work item: Template:Q, all Iliad versions
    • edition item: Template:Q, a Catalan translation by Conrad Roure
      • manifestation item 1: Qxxx, the original manuscript by Conrad Roure kept at the library
      • manifestation item 2: Qxxx, a print run of 300 exemplars with 300 pages
      • manifestation item 3: Template:Q, special print run of 30 exemplars with 336 pages
This is of course hypothetic, normally it would be enough having only the work and edition item, only when more than one manifestation is added, then it would be needed to split it.--Micru (talk) 19:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Thanks. I'm not sure that we need distinct items for different manifestations of the same edition, we are not a library after all :) Alternatively, we can create "text" property with links to Wikisource, like Template:P and Template:P. And I think that text can be translated unambiguously into many more languages than manifestation of. Danneks (talk) 09:32, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Yes, that could be another option, but if it is just to link with the "Wikisource index page" (the text is a sitelink) I wouldn't call it "text", but perhaps simply "Wikisource index page" which is what it is :) I'm also thinking that such a property could be used as qualifier of "scan file".--Micru (talk) 11:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
And what about non-bibliographic items? How do we link classes like Template:Q => Template:Q? Do we need a more user-friendly name, like "representation of"? Or can we perhaps (ab)use "instance of"? Pinging Template:Ping to see if he has some idea.--Micru (talk) 11:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, money is defined as any object generally accepted as payment, and banknotes are clearly a subclass of such objects. Danneks (talk) 11:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
There are two "money" concepts, one is "object accepted as payment", and the other "record accepted as payment", I guess you are referring to the first one which is clear, but I am more interested in the second. Or better said, how to connect both concepts in a better way than having both merged in one item.--Micru (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't understand you at all. Isn't record an Template:Q? Or maybe you can give reference to the fact that there are two money concepts... Danneks (talk) 12:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
See the lead text of enwp: the main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered money. By "item" it is meant a physical entity, and by "record" it is meant an information entity.
Information is what happens when you perceive something, and a physical entity happens independently of perception. To put it briefly, "a banknote" is always happening, but the "realization that the banknote is worth 10EUR" only happens when someone perceives it and decodes its message.
Template:Q has the connotation of something perceived by an observer, not of something happening independently of perception.--Micru (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, it seems that for different philosophers, "object" has different connotations... Personally, I like the opinion "object=entity". So I think that "banknote" does not exist unless someone will say that it is a banknote, and its "atoms" do not exist unless someone will say that they are atoms... We can say that they "correspond to matter", but the problem is that we can't say anything about matter itself... And I can say that "money" correspond to some matter too, I have some material money :). So I think that having the "instance of" property would be enough for all purposes, unless you will show a convincing counter-example. Danneks (talk) 15:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping This property seems a little bit abstract to be OK with only one example to me. I'm not sure I understand this property. For the money problem, I would say it's easier to say that each coin is an object with a facial value, the facial value would be a number with a currency type. It seems easier to model, a property facial value, a qualifier property for the currency (or converse). For editions, how is this different from using Template:Instance of ? TomT0m (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Well if you are fine using instance of to link class-to-class, then I'm fine with <Template:Q> instance of <Template:Q>. Another example could be <human> instance of <person>, or <teacher> instance of <profession>.--Micru (talk) 09:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping You're one of the ones who like controversies, aren't you ? :) You can't do that without reflexion. Both human and persons are class of real world objects. This means if you take the set of all persons and the set of all humans, the set of all humans is a subset of all persons. This means Template:Subclass of must be used. Now if you take a concept like clade, this is different. The set of all clade is not a set of real world objects, like the set of all humans. Actually <human> is an example of a clade. So the set of all clades is a set of sets of organisms, I will call this kind of class a metaclass. Classes can be members of metaclasses, but not subsets of metaclasses. We should think "member of the set of = Template:Instance of" and "subset of = Template:Subclass of. When I talk of artwork, I use a little trick allowed in the OWL language: I use the same item for a written work and for the sets of his, if I understand well, the sets of its printed embodiment. We can do that if we can always tell if we are talking of the item as an artwork or if we are talking of the item as a set of books. This seems cool to me as we do not have to introduce a new concet like embodiment If we are linking an instance of a book object to an artwork item, we can know for sure it is as a class opf books. Now I don't know how that relates to money :) Maybe a property who links abstract things to cncrete one is cool. Can we say a Template:Q'' is an embodiment of its measure unit ? this would be cool but can't cover the new abstract definitions of the International system for example. TomT0m (talk) 10:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping A set can be an element of another set... a type can be a term in a universe type, which in turn can be a term in another universe type... a Template:Q can be an object of another category... This is not controversial, compared to "real objects" and "manifestations". Danneks (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Neither I like controversies nor I dislike them, they just happen :) The example of "person" is complex, because there are different views [3], but if you say that <human> instance of <clade> to mean "member of the set of", that is fine for me.
A <standard (class)> is definitely a manifestation of <measure unit (class)>. If you think the words "manifestation", or "embodiment" are too abstract, "execution", "rendering", or "interpretation" are also similar. OTOH, if we can use "instance of" for that purpose, I am also fine with it.--Micru (talk) 12:23, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe "used to define" would be more accurate? There is the definition of Template:Q, and this definition mentiones light — quite a definite relationship. Danneks (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping <definition of metre (1983)> manifestation of <metre>. A metre is just a concept, and it has been materialized in different ways through the years.--Micru (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping And here I'd have used instance of. "metre (1983)" is also a concept: I suspect that only humans know about metres, it requires a lot of abstraction. Danneks (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping Exactly, both of them are mind-made, but as you were saying "metre (1983)" mentions light, which puts it closer to physical world than the other one. I'm also fine using <instance of>, but one has to bear in mind that "metre (1983)" is a class.--Micru (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Don't follow you guys. This discussion seems to go way out of control. If meter is a class, then which definition would you give for its instances ? the metre class is the set of all objects of precisely one meter ? Do not seem very useful. TomT0m (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, we can say: "this distance is a meter". Danneks (talk) 16:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC) I mean, the distance between given two points. Of course, we can say this about many pairs of points... whether it is useful or not. Danneks (talk) 16:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I see it as this:
  • <metre> concept gestated from 1668 to 1771 and that is still alive
  • <metre (1983)> one of many implementations of the concept
  • <metre (physical measure)> element built or measured following the 1983 guidelines
Depending on how many of those abstraction levels you represent in Wikidata, some statements make more sense than others. For instance if we represent all 3 of them, to say "<metre (physical object)> instance of <metre (concept)>" conveys less meaning than to say "<metre (physical object)> instance of <metre (1983)>". It is important to realize that there are no "fix" classes. Like the lense of a microscope we can adjust the abstraction level of any class to at least those three levels. Perhaps it would be more clear if we use a distinct property.--Micru (talk) 17:03, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Fortunately, we would never have an item <metre (physical measure)>, because now it is impossible to build that physical element. And without its building, it will remain an abstract concept, the same as <metre (1983)>. Danneks (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Technically speaking, every time that you measure something you are instantiating a class based on <metre (1983)>. And with Commons joining in, maybe someone wants to create an item to represent the object that this image depicts. So never say never :) --Micru (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
This image depicts a metre bar, which is not an instance of a metre, but of a metallic bar. All we can say is that a certain definition of metre uses that bar... maybe sometime we will be able to say in which way the definition uses it, and it would not involve any "manifestations", only the procedures which were used to compare measuring instruments with that bar. Danneks (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
This image depicts a metre bar according to your mind, and which is not an instance of a metre according to your mind :) Without the mind there cannot be known if there is or there is not, because the mind precedes all that can be known. Without it you wouldn't be able to codify things and much less think about if there such a thing or not. It is impossible to get rid of "manifestations" (transformation of concepts into physical matter/processes) because it is impossible to get rid of the mind without getting rid of the idea that there are things. You can hide that as much as you wish, or pretend that it is not like that, but as soon you scratch a little bit this fact reappears, which in fact it is just a co-lateral effect of having a smaller system codifying a larger container system and building a model out of it.--Micru (talk) 07:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, and Wikidata is a database of human knowledge. Danneks (talk) 07:58, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
BTW, I don't think that to get rid of the mind is a healthy desire :) It's like "no man, no problem". Danneks (talk) 08:13, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
So that's why there will always be concepts that can happen only in the mind (like mathematics), concepts that happen in the mind inferred from contact with reality, and things that happen independently from the mind but that we wouldn't know if we didn't have a mind to interpret them. For me all this conversation was about defining the relationship between the 1st and the 2nd group, if it is not clear I think it is better to let this discussion aside for a while. Oh, yes I agree about your last point... better than the desire for no-mind is the wish for understanding and control over it. Perhaps a good motto for the site would be "Wikidata - the mind you can edit" :) --Micru (talk) 09:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Of course I understand that you want to distinguish the concepts of the first and the second kind, the only problem is that they could not be clearly distinguished. Yesterday aether was "real", today it is "abstract"... Wikidata is needed as a reliable source of knowledge, not as a source of philosophical guesses of its editors. Danneks (talk) 10:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
"Wikidata is needed as a reliable source of knowledge guesses", FTFY :) As expressed in this essay, abstraction is not a boolean parameter, but a continuum. If we wanted we could put thousands of shades and they will never end, but there are some basic categories that are useful for organizing knowledge and for making sense of it.--Micru (talk) 11:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, if you are sure that this way of making sense does not generate controversy in a multi-cultural setting and we would not get statements like <Muhammad> <manifestation of> <Allāh> all over the place, then I don't object. Danneks (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Wikidata has sources to deal with controversial statemants, that actually reads [claim] according to [the source]. We also have qualifiers like disputed by. But I really would recommand not to use this property out of libraries scope. TomT0m (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ping FBBR seems to be an accepted model, can you provide an actual usecase of it ? And out of curiosity, why did you extract only one relationship of it when they forms a whole (meter seems clearly out of scope anyway). TomT0m (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:PingMy main interest is to keep compatibility with the Library of Congress, The British Library, and other national libraries like DNB that are implementing RDA (the manifestation of FRBR). What others confuse with "philosophical guesses", is in fact a well-established conceptual framework with wide support. By making sense of that framework in our structure and having the necessary properties to model it, then it will be possible to keep interoperability with huge bodies of data. The use case is to automate metadata import and maintenance as much as possible with as many standards and sources as possible. I did extract only one relationship because it is the most significant one that we are missing (see here). Bear in mind that we are taking some liberties in its application, in order to keep it simple at the begining of item creation, but allowing an expansion of the structure whenever needed.--Micru (talk) 11:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems contradictory to both take liberties to maintain compatibility. When it is up to mass import, what about database laws issues ? It's probably OK for the US database imports, but … last to maintain compatibility with a well defined goal, how about some documentation about the mapping ? All 1/1 properties, with the same intended meaning ?
Comment on your spreadsheet : I don't get the 3rd and fourth column. Isn't item/manifestation relation a 1/1 mapping ? TomT0m (talk) 11:38, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Item compatibility can be achieved by keeping a clean concept tree and by knowing the abstraction level that an item represents (think of abstraction level as a zoom). External properties can be mapped directly to q-items and inferred which is the closest property we have. And more documentation would be nice, but it requires a lot of time that I don't have. Item and manifestation are different, I gave an example high above this thread, but abstraction levels are approximations, and as such you can collapse them or expand them at will.--Micru (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, if you can't be clearer than that I won't follow this. TomT0m (talk) 12:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping If an item is an instance of any of these items, the instantiated item represents a work. If the item has "edition of" we know that it represents a expression of that work, and if another one is an instance of any of these then it represents a manifestation. FRBR-items are not relevant because they will be stored in Commons and linked with an specific property. In the excel file you have the properties required to connect the different abstraction levels (if they exist). Is that clear enough?--Micru (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping seems OK to me at first sight. If I understand well, a lot of their conceps implicitely maps with our concept. And if we choose to use instance of to link for example to link a work to a radiophonic manifestaion of this work or edition, thought as classes of manifestations, we can also map this to their manifestation of concept. In this view an edition can even be thought as a subclass of a work I guess.
OK, just to recap :
An artist starts to worw on something. He gets a sequence of intermediary results. This is what we could «work». finally he gets something he wants show other people, this is what we could call « an expression ». An expression is a text, or a sound, or a video. If we read and record the reading of a text, we get another expression of a work. An expression could be seen as a step in the working sequence of the author(s). For that matter, he uses a communication medium like a book or a radio station. He or they can produce any number of those manifestations. This mean that a work by itself in this model is neither textual or vocal by essence. A manifestation is the set of concrete objects storing the same expression. Different supports can store the same expression (CD - casettes), then they refers to the same expression, but belongs to manifestations. Expressions are sets of identical physical objects. A manifestation as a class can be seen as the set of the union all the physical objects of manifestations of the same expression.
I think there could be a mismatch here. I woud identify an edition in the Wikidata sence with a manifestation, not to an expression. A reprinting of a book with the same text but with different colors is an edition. TomT0m (talk) 15:30, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Template:Ping On a more practical level it is not as clear-cut as that, but rather:
I want to model a novel, and I create an item (Qx) to enter some data about it. This item might represent any abstraction level or all at once (down to physical item), depending on how much data I entered. Then someone else sees my item and creates a new item (Qy) for a translation in his/her language and moves some of the data from Qx to Qz which is a new item more specific for part of the data I originally entered. Qx, my original item, now has a more limited scope, it has stopped representing all levels, and now it only represents work. Qy and Qz are now representing the remaining levels. Then a third person comes an adds some sub-items to Qz, which stops representing expression-manifestation-item, and now represents only expression...
As you can see the items don't have a fix "area of influence", it keeps evolving depending on how much data is fed to them. The apparent mismatch is not only intentionate, but inevitable if we want to keep some flexibility. In practice it is much easier because people in general understand that if there is this much data, the item refers to this, or that if this is an instance of something material, then the item must be material. The only missing link was when we have to connect a class of non-material objects with a class of material objects. If you say that using "instance of" is enough, then it's fine.--Micru (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:S

I think the best use case of this is for instances, not classes. The problem I find with classes is the many-to-many problem, so to me it's not clear if we were using it for classes what direction to go in, i.e.

Reversed property, manifested as

  • Encylopedia (work) manifested as collection of books (manifestation)
  • Encylopedia (work) manifested as website (manifestation)
  • Encyclopedia volume (work) manifested as book (manifestation)
  • Encyclopedia article (work) manifested as book section (manifestation)
  • Encyclopedia article (work) manifested as webpage (manifestation)

Original property, manifestation of:

  • Book (manifestation) manifestation of encyclopedia volume (work)
  • Website (manifestation) manifestation of encyclopedia volume (work)
  • Book (manifestation)manifestation of proceedings (work)
  • Book (manifestation)manifestation of dictionary (work)
  • Book (manifestation)manifestation of novel (work)

The far more useful case, IMO, is using it for instances to denote relationships between instances of manifestations and instances of work. So if we wanted to find the work that a manifestation pertains to, or several manifestations of the work (using the original property only):

  • Insect ( Encyclopedia Britannica work)
    • instance of encyclopedia article (work)
    • author Sir Vincent Brian Wigglesworth
  • Insect ( Encyclopedia Britannica webpage)
  • Insect ( Encyclopedia Britannica article)
    • instance book section (manifestation)
    • manifestation of Insect ( Encyclopedia Britannica work)
    • volume II
    • pages 200-202

In practical terms many of the work and manifestation properties are in the same wikidata item, in which manifestation of isn't useful but manifested as is slightly useful to the properties herein. As both manifesting a webpage and a book section, it will have a url as well as a volume:

With neither property, using instance of for everything:

If there is only one work and the manifestations seem to mix properties okay, this is less of an issue. But consider a song: as a work, the composer is generally considered the author, and this would go in the author property. But if the song is published in a book, the "author" is actually usually published as the author of the book. And in a recording of that song? Well the performer is frequently in the author field. If we have a single wikidata item for a song, in the "authors" field do we put the composer, and the author of every book it was in, and every performer that has ever sung it and the information for all those recordings that have been made of it? This is actually what happens to a popular song like Silent Night. It has a semi-large list of performers already. A Nightmare! (Pun intended).

tl;dr Support, and I'll probably mostly use it for instances to link manifestations of a work to the work. Mvolz (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2014 (UTC) Template:Support to match FRBR which is the standard for book metadata. Filceolaire (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Support, it may be useful in some cases to distinguish between a text and a text with a medium. Danneks (talk) 15:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

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